On today's episode of WNYC's popup advice show, David Furst, host of Weekend Edition on WNYC, leads am advice call-in conversation about making sense of the information landscape surrounding this year's midterm elections, with On The Media co-host Micah Loewinger. Listeners call in with their questions about how to understand polling, deal with 'news burnout,' and make sense of the competing narratives within the political sphere.
Note: You are listening to the podcast version of a live radio show. The call-in number only works between 1 and 2 PM Eastern, while the show is live.
If you'd like to submit advice questions to be featured on the show, or topic suggestions for future shows, please use the form on our showpage at wnyc.org/advice
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David Furst: Welcome to Please Advise, a pop-up advice show from WNYC. I'm David Furst, and I'm your host for the next two weeks here on Please Advise. A quick bit of housekeeping before we get started. Please Advise is now available as a podcast on Apple, Spotify, wherever else you get your podcasts. Go ahead and give us a follow if you want to get all of our shows sent straight to your device every day that we are on the air.
Tomorrow, we take listener questions and advice on how to appreciate music. If there is a genre of music that maybe you don't get or maybe you just haven't got into yet, we want to hear about it. Our musical guide will be Hrishikesh Hirway from the podcast and Netflix series Song Exploder. Today we are two weeks out from the midterm elections. Election day is November 3rd. In person early voting starts this Saturday in New York and New Jersey. We're talking about navigating the political media landscape. How do you evaluate misinformation on social media? Can you rely on polling data? Should we actually be worried about election tampering? How do we avoid news burnout?
Listeners, we want you to join this conversation. Call or text us with questions and your own advice at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Here to help us evaluate sources and navigate all of this news is Micah Loewinger, the co-host of WNYC's On the Media, a show that has just been an incredible resource and trusted companion over the decades. Micah, welcome to Please Advise.
Micah Loewinger: Thank you so much for having me. This is really fun.
David Furst: Listeners once again, join this conversation. Call us or text us, 212-433-9692. All right, so setting the stage, the midterm election, November 3rd, all 435 seats in the House of Representatives up for election, along with 35 of 100 seats in the Senate. Across the country, there are elections for state legislatures, gubernatorial races in 36 states, including here in New York, closely watched races in California, Florida, Georgia, Michigan. It's an election year with a lot of high-stakes races and the balance of power to be decided in Congress.
I'm hearing this from a lot of people. Some people tell me that they're just tuning out from all the news, and this election cycle, they're saying they're burnt out from the ads, the doom and gloom on their news feeds. Micah, as someone whose job it is to follow the news, do you ever feel that way?
Micah Loewinger: Of course. Oh, my God. At the beginning of this second Trump administration, people would send me messages, and they'd say, "Good luck. It's going to be hard. Brace yourself." To be honest, it made me wince. I was like, "We're not doing brain surgery. This is a podcast. This is a radio show. I'm not an immigration attorney. I'm not an emergency room nurse. I'm clicking on tabs on my laptop and scrolling on my phone." I really brush this stuff aside.
As we know from the first Trump administration, the president's advisor, Steve Bannon, famously coined the phrase "flood the zone with bleep". That is the strategy. That is the information strategy of this administration, this president, and the people he surrounds himself with. We are going to inundate journalists and news consumers with so much information, so many different executive orders, policies, conflicting narratives, stories, narratives, things that will excite our base and freak out our critics.
It creates this overwhelming sense that you can't keep up with everything, so why try at all. That's an unfortunate reality of our information landscape. To answer your question, yes, I absolutely get burnt out, and it's something I've tried to learn how to cope with.
David Furst: How do you personally cope with that burnout? Because I understand what you're saying. It's not like you're an emergency room surgeon, but On the Media is really known for taking this unflinching look at what's going on. You don't get to look away.
Micah Loewinger: No, we don't. I mean, we have a team. We have producers. There's Brooke and I, the two hosts. We're all sharing the burden, so to speak. How do I cope with it? One is I just try to be honest with myself about what my personal limits are. I now know the feeling of burnout intimately. For me, it is this avoidant behavior. I don't want to read the news. I don't want to listen to the radio. When people around me are talking about the news, I try to change the subject or tune it out. That's just like a sad way to be, because, of course, I care about current events. Of course I want to be engaged. I consider it to be civically important, a part of my role as a citizen, not just as my job.
When I feel that way, I just try to give myself some grace. I just say, "Right now I'm not doing so great." Just because I don't want to read the news today or tomorrow or this week doesn't mean it's not going to be there in a week. I try to set limits. I try not to read late at night. That's what keeps me up. It gets the gears turning. After like 9:00 PM, I just try to do something--
David Furst: Like night doom scrolling.
Micah Loewinger: Yes, just try to do something stupid, like watching a movie or watching cooking videos on YouTube. I try to unwind. I take long rides to Rockaway Beach. I see freaky jazz in the Lower East Side. I just try to enjoy being in the community and around other people, and not just follow the dark thoughts where they lead you.
David Furst: Those are great tips for any day.
Micah Loewinger: Exactly.
David Furst: I like those ideas.
Micah Loewinger: Exactly.
David Furst: If you want to join this conversation, do you have anything that has worked for you when it comes to managing news burnout? Here's that number again. It's 212-433-9692. How is the media doing when it comes to covering this election? I want to play the way you set it up on your show. This is from the On the Media episode from October 2nd.
Micah Loewinger: Election Day is now just one month away, but fears about November have been building all year.
?Journalist: It's absolutely insane that the biggest potential threat to our elections this fall is not Russian interference or terrorists, but our own federal government.
US Senator: My advice to state and local colleagues is think of the craziest scenario you can imagine and then think even crazier.
Micah Loewinger: The big question we continue to ask, what is the president planning?
?CNN Anchor: In February, he told podcaster and former FBI Co-Deputy Dan Bongino that--
President Donald Trump: The Republicans should say we want to take over. We should take over the voting in at least many 15 places. The Republicans ought to nationalize the voting.
David Furst: Okay, so think of the craziest scenario and then think even crazier. There's a lot of fear out there.
Micah Loewinger: So much.
David Furst: About the way things might go on November 3rd. How is the media doing covering all of this?
Micah Loewinger: As I try to get to in that episode, there is this fine line or tension at the heart of this stuff, which is, on one hand, of course, we want the media to stay on top of all of these election meddling narratives, which we can get into. Of course, we want them to report on them. Of course, by reporting on them, one, it can be overwhelming. Like which ones are actually going to happen? Which ones are these obscure, bizarre scenarios? For me, when I was watching this stuff, it was, honestly, a bit overwhelming, and I needed some help sorting through it.
By covering them a lot, it also elevates the unproven claims and conspiracy theories that power them, which is this idea that widespread election fraud is such a great threat that the Trump administration needs to get in there and potentially nationalize the elections to save the election. I mean, you have to untangle this logic that doesn't make all that much sense.
David Furst: We're going to get to a call in just a second. If you want to join this conversation, if you have a question about the election or if you have some burnout advice, 212-433-9692. I want to play just a bit more of that show.
Micah Loewinger: Please.
David Furst: This is a conversation from that same On the Media episode, your interview with Rick Hasen, law professor, director of the Safeguarding Democracy Project at UCLA. Here, after talking about how we need to prepare for the election, but we also need to keep our heads on straight and not go into panic mode, he focused in on something that does actually concern him.
Rick Hasen: The thing that worries me the most is potentially trying to seize ballots or voting machines in a live election. Back over the summer, Tulsi Gabbard, the former Director of National Intelligence, had the Department of Homeland Security seize Dominion voting machines in Puerto Rico. We also had the Department of Justice get a search warrant and seize ballots in Fulton County, Georgia, ballots related to the 2020 election. We did see this Chad Bianco, local sheriff, getting a search warrant to seize ballots in the state race over Proposition 50.
In both of those search warrant cases, the affidavits showing probable evidence of a crime were based on discredited conspiracy theories about how elections are run.
Micah Loewinger: Yes.
Rick Hasen: That didn't stop a judge from issuing it, because judges typically are pretty solicitous of law enforcement, and if law enforcement says there's probable cause, they're apt to believe it. This is a real danger. At the Safeguarding Democracy Project, we wrote a white paper for judges to tell them what it means to break the chain of electoral custody. Once ballots in a live election would be taken out of the hands of election officials. There's no way to know if ballots are added to, or subtracted from, or altered.
David Furst: That's from the episode "Trump's Guide to Stealing an Election." I highly recommend that you listen to that whole show. Micah, what are you going to be most focused on on Election Day?
Micah Loewinger: Yes, I guess, just to piggyback off of what Rick said. In January, the New York Times reported that Trump administration, the first time around, had drafted an executive order to call in the National Guard to seize voting machines and ballots following the 2020 election and elected not to sign that executive order. He told the New York Times that he regretted not signing the executive order. This is one of those examples where it sounds like crazy, wacky scenario, but Rick Hasen, who's a very trusted elections law expert at UCLA, says this is the kind of thing that would create a lot of chaos because election workers, they have to protect the ballot chain of custody to make sure there's no tampering while an election is happening and while votes are being counted.
I have seen so many crazy election scenarios. Trump's going to declare martial law and declare national emergency to take over elections. You can't do that. He's going to send a thousand election monitors around the country from the DOJ to look at polling places. Is that going to do anything? There's almost 100,000 polling places in the United States. I think it's worth paying attention to maybe this one scenario Hasen has highlighted and then trying to calm your nerves when you see all these other potential scenarios.
David Furst: We're talking about the upcoming election and how the media is covering the upcoming election and about news burnout. If you want to join the conversation, the number 212-433-9692. Let's hear from Susanna calling from Westfield. Welcome.
Susanna: Thank you. Hi. I am taking a run toward the fire, not away from it approach. I was not super politically active when Trump first got elected, and that electrified our town. There was a whole group called Westfield 2020 that was formed within 48 hours of his election, and we've kicked into gear. I am not even the most active, but I have canvassed, I have phone banked. I have been a poll observer at two presidential elections in Pennsylvania where they really needed poll observers. I joined my town's Democratic committee. I have donated to 10 Senate campaigns and donated even more to Rebecca Bennett, who's a Democrat who's running to unseat Tom Kean Jr., so we can flip the House. I also worked for, on the campaign--
David Furst: Your response is to just get even more involved?
Susanna: My response is "not on my watch."
David Furst: Micah, is that something you're hearing a lot of as well?
Micah Loewinger: Yes. I'll say, regardless of what your politics are, who you're voting for, what excites you about this midterm season, I think it's just awesome to get more involved. I think of this term from a political scientist that we've had on the show named Eitan Hersh. He coined the term 'political hobbyism'. This has been helpful for me in understanding sometimes my own behavior around this stuff, which is that when he spoke mostly, honestly, with liberals, public radio listeners, podcast listeners, New York Times readers, he found that a large percentage of them considered their main form of activism to be reading the news. They thought they were doing something, and in some cases they weren't doing nothing else but reading the news. They described themselves as politically active.
If that is your relationship to politics, if that is your relationship to your community and to American government, then, of course, you're going to get burnt out, because you don't do anything else. Perhaps you're honestly deluding yourself about how much you're doing. You're just putting your face in front of the fire hose and saying, "I am a good citizen." It's a great start. It's a great start. I do think that, yes, like volunteering, joining a book club, volunteering as a poll worker, canvassing for a campaign, I think these are ways that you can be involved in the midterms, in the politics, reclaim some agency in this frightening, dizzying moment and avoid some of the pain of news burnout.
David Furst: Some of that feeling of putting your face in front of the fire hose, as you're saying.
Micah Loewinger: Exactly.
David Furst: I'm David Furst. This is Please Advise here on WNYC. We are here with Micah Loewinger. We need to take a quick break. We'll have more of your calls and texts on navigating the news this midterm season. Still ahead. Here's that number to get involved. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.
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David Furst: You're listening to Please Advise, a pop-up advice show from WNYC. I'm David Furst. With us all today is Micah Loewinger, co-host of WNYC's On the Media. We are here to give and take advice on facing down the endless barrage of news in this election season. We want to hear your questions about this election and your advice. Maybe you figured out a way to politely correct a friend on social media, spreading misinformation. Maybe you have a great Election Night tradition that keeps you staying up all night, refreshing the New York Times homepage or something? Give us a call. Join this conversation, the number 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can call us or text us. Let's hear right now from Ramona in Philadelphia. Welcome.
Ramona: Hi, David. Thanks for having me on. I've appreciated the new show a lot, but my advice today might be a little bit contradictory to what was earlier said, and I wouldn't advise necessarily driving to Rockaway Beach unless that's what you want to do.
Micah Loewinger: Biking to Rockaway Beach.
David Furst: From Philly.
Ramona: [chuckles] Not from Philly. I biked to Rockaway Beach from Brooklyn, not from Philly, alas. Recently, I've been practicing the art of doing nothing and settling into that and trying to put it into practice in the hard times. I don't feel like it's giving up or that it's giving in, but giving into yourself and your capability of being present in all of the moments. It carries into the moments that especially feel too hard for me.
David Furst: What about that advice, the doing nothing approach?
Micah Loewinger: I think it's awesome. I think that I have gone through stretches of doing nothing and it feels good, and I feel like I can recharge my mind. Sometimes it takes me a couple of weeks, two to three weeks of doing nothing, to get the benefits. What the caller said about knowing yourself really resonated with me. I recently interviewed Naomi Klein, the essayist and longtime political journalist. I asked her this as a throwaway thing at the end of the interview. Didn't make it into our latest episode. I said, "What do you say to listeners who want to run away-- want to hide from the darkness of our world right now."
I'm not trying to use hide in a negative way. I just mean for those of us who can't stare down the barrel of the gun 24/7. She said, "I've always written about this stuff. I've always charged headfirst, and I'm not going to stop now." I was kinda like, "Well, that's her. She has superpowers." Some people, they really got the gene to be able to just stay on top of everything all the time, but I don't. That's okay, and I'm learning about my own limits and not feeling too guilty because other people have a higher tolerance.
David Furst: Maybe some healthy ebb and flow going back and forth between the two.
Micah Loewinger: Exactly. Yes, exactly.
David Furst: If you want to join this conversation again, here's that number. You can call or text, 212-433-9692. Alan in Brooklyn, welcome.
Alan: Good morning. My first call to this new show. Good luck. [crosstalk]
David Furst: It's great to have you here.
Alan: I listen at least once or twice a week to the Wednesday and the Friday editions. Keep up that good work as well.
Micah Loewinger: Thank you.
Alan: My main point here is to discuss the importance of public debate on things that are not immediately practical legal solutions. We had pamphleteers during the pre-revolutionary decades, and it wasn't until those pamphlets became circulated among the population that certain ideas became prominent enough among leaders in the Congress for them to talk about them and debate practical terms of the Declaration or Constitution or a Bill of Rights. We need to do the same thing with things that are not immediate remedies to make them possible in a decade or a few years to become remedies.
One example I have is the way the Supreme Court developed the idea that there has to be some limits of First Amendment freedom back in the early nineteen-teens in the Skank case. That case involved allegations that anti-war pamphlets were somehow so awful that they had to be banned. Prior restraint was justified, but they didn't get immediately to those facts, and they created a hypothetical that everybody would agree to before-
David Furst: Interesting.
Alan: -they backed into the-- Yes.
David Furst: Did you want to have a chance to respond to Alan, some of his thoughts?
Micah Loewinger: Alan, thank you for listening to the show. One thing that caught my ear in your comment was this idea of having a forum to debate ideas that are important to our time, that aren't necessarily immediate solutions. It reminds me of an interview that I did recently on the show with a political scientist named Lilliana Mason, and she was talking about this concept of polarization where it feels like people from the two major parties just don't like each other anymore and everyone's so angry.
I think it contributes to this emotional atmosphere that makes a lot of people turn off. It's become a trendy idea that we should address polarization. If people just got along better, then our country would function better. She has studied this idea quite a bit. What I found fascinating about her take was that she didn't feel that polarization in and of itself is like the biggest problem that threatens America. She said polarization is a symptom of the things that divide us. The things that divide us, sorry to say, are worth arguing about.
She found that the polarization is highest among Republicans, who score highest in racism and highest in sexism. They're polarized most from Democrats who score lowest in racism and lowest in sexism. She found that Republicans who score low in racism and low in sexism are the least polarized. They have the least anger towards anyone, which is interesting. Her point was, we are arguing about important things right now. Of course, it elicits really emotional responses. Sometimes it elicits emotional debate in media, and sometimes we don't like hearing about it. It's okay to debate, it's okay to disagree, especially when we are talking about what matters most to our country.
David Furst: You're listening to Please Advise here on WNYC. We're taking your calls and texts. I have a text right here picking up on something we were talking about earlier in the hour. Here's the text. "Interference really is reasonable because Trump doesn't have to go after all of the election sites in the world, just the few that matter to interfere and make the impact he wants."
Micah Loewinger: That's totally fair. It's possible there could be the "election monitors" from the DOJ who are just sent to Maricopa County because that has been a place that has attracted a lot of conspiracy theorizing around election fraud. I don't want to sound like I know exactly what's going to happen or is not going to happen. I can't read the future. I will say this, though. I recently read a piece in Slate from 2024 by a writer named Justin Levitt, and he taught me a new term, which was electoral-process porn. Electoral-process porn.
What he was saying is that there is a common genre of coverage that starts and tends to capture attention around this time, where political writers describe obscure scenarios where something might happen. For most of us, we've never thought of this scenario before, and it's quite novel, and it captures our attention. Can I read a quote about electoral-process porn?
David Furst: Sure.
Micah Loewinger: He says they are written not to inform or motivate, but to titillate, as if they were meant to be read furtively at night in the dark. Electoral-process porn also dehumanizes and disempowers. It cultivates the exaggerated impression that an election can just be overturned or stolen out from under us by pushing the right series of buttons.
David Furst: Disempowers.
Micah Loewinger: Exactly. It makes you less interested in participating if you think your vote can just be taken away by someone in some corner of the country pulling a lever. It's not how it works. We do have power. The reason there are so many scary stories right now about what could go wrong is because there are people in power who want us to think it's not even worth trying anymore. That's wrong.
David Furst: You're listening to Please Advise here on WNYC. I want to come back to that part of the conversation in just a moment. We have to take a quick break. I'm David Furst. Our guest today, Micah Loewinger, co-host of WNYC's On the Media.
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David Furst: You're listening to Please Advise, a pop-up advice show here on WNYC. I'm David Furst, and we are so happy to be with Micah Loewinger today, co-host of WNYC's On the Media, here to give and take advice on facing down all of the news during an election season. We want your questions and yes, your advice on how you manage Election Night. Maybe how you manage burnout. Maybe you have a question about the election. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC.
Micah, On the Media famously created this breaking news consumers handbook to help sort out good information from bad when breaking news is happening. As you describe it on the On the Media website, "Breaking news reporting often gets essential facts wrong. Misreporting can be so common as to be predictable. On the Media has developed formulas with the help of experts for how to spot spotty coverage." I want to imagine an Election Night where there's a lot of fast-moving news, wild social media posts, and speculation. Can you walk us through an Election Night version of your breaking news handbook? What should we keep in mind?
Micah Loewinger: This is a great idea for the show, so I think maybe I'll steal this and then we'll report it out thoroughly for the national audience. I guess just off the top of my head, as you said, just be really vigilant about wild speculation on social media. The funny thing to me about misinformation is we always imagine it as something that other people are doing or other people are spreading. Of course, we all play a role in this. I have fallen for stories that are incomplete or outright wrong. It's human nature, because--
David Furst: It's a reminder for ourselves.
Micah Loewinger: Exactly. The most successful, the stickiest, most viral lies on the Internet are often the ones that anger us a lot, and/or confirm our biases about what's wrong in the world. Just go into Election Night with the knowledge that there are political interests in undermining faith in the election. We saw this quite a bit after the 2020 election, there were rampant conspiracy theories about widespread voter fraud. The really sad thing is, in time, these conspiracy theories get debunked. Not everyone sees the debunking, but they are reported out. Sometimes there are consequences for spreading conspiracy theories. The people who are harmed by the conspiracy theories often still feel the pain.
I think about this book and film, 10,000 Mules by Dinesh D'Souza. This was like a viral conspiracy theory film that alleged this scheme to harvest ballots and fake votes for Joe Biden. One of the men who-- a random voter in Georgia who was accused of participating in this scheme. There was a video and images of him that went viral. He got all kinds of death threats. Then eventually Dinesh D'Souza had to walk it all back and apologize, and the distribution of his book was halted, and the distribution of the film was halted. Think of the harm that's done to people when--
David Furst: Pizzagate.
Micah Loewinger: Exactly. Pizzagate. Just take a beat. The news will be there in the morning. The midterm election will be there a day later. Just try to temper the part of you that wants to jump on the suspicion or feeling that something untoward might be happening, because we will learn more about it and we will be able to speak confidently and credibly about it once the rigorous reporting enters the conversation.
David Furst: We'll take another call in just a moment. We're getting a text on this very point, someone saying, "When someone sends me a questionable news item, I check with Snopes or other sites-"
Micah Loewinger: That's a great one.
David Furst: "-and send an appropriate debunking link." Maybe can you mention a couple other trusted sources?
Micah Loewinger: Snopes is a really, really good one. I really like an account on TikTok or Instagram if you're on those sites, Dave Jorgenson. He was the Washington Post TikTok guy. He's funny, he's a great writer, and he's really, really good at debunking and reporting out and exploring the types of misinformation that goes viral on the video platforms. We're all going to be scrolling a lot on Election Night. We're going to see a bunch of stuff. Again, it doesn't matter what your beliefs are or what filter bubble you're in or what news you consume. If you're on social media, you're going to encounter wild speculation on Election Night.
I think that Dave does a good job of helping us laugh at ourselves a little bit when it comes to just how easy it is to fall for this stuff. Because these AI tools are becoming more robust and easier to use, I think there's going to be a question about, like, "Is what we're looking at a real video? Is it authentic?" Sometimes it takes some time to really investigate the authenticity of images we see online. Just try to take a beat. Just fight the temptation if you can.
David Furst: That AI concession speech that we're suddenly watching, that-- Oh, boy. Let's take another call. This is Please Advise here on WNYC. Thank you, everybody, joining the conversation today. Let's hear from Marion from the Upper East Side. Welcome.
Marion: Hello. I'm glad to be talking with you. I wish to differ with Micah. I'm exhausted, as most of us are, but I do feel that there is something else going on here. I think power has us focused on the election, and they are not having us focus on what I am concerned about, that there will be a declaration of war, a rally round the flag, and that patriotism will be what will lead us into a war that will disrupt the entire electoral process. At this point, I am more concerned than I have ever been that the election will disappear in the move to war. I am further confirmed in that because I understand as of today, Hegseth is meeting with Netanyahu about such a thing as mine. I'm very, very concerned.
David Furst: Marion, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your very real concerns. This is really hitting on a lot of the fears that a lot of us are feeling right now, whatever shape and direction it may be pointing in.
Micah Loewinger: Yes. Marion, thank you for the call. This isn't something I'd thought about or really heard much about. I guess just to push back on the specific scenario you outlined. The Trump administration launched a war with Iran, and we still have midterm elections happening. That war happens to be quite unpopular. It has not induced some national psychosis where all American citizens have forgotten about our electoral system.
I don't believe that this particular scenario you've outlined is all that likely. I will say that there are other election tampering scenarios that have been written about and discussed. I think it's worth considering just how energized a lot of voters are right now. People are voting early in huge, huge numbers. I saw that in Georgia. Early voting was like breaking records. I think we will likely see similar enthusiasm across the country. People want their voices to be heard, and any attempt at suppressing the vote from our government will be met with a political backlash.
I think it's fair to be concerned about the integrity of the election because of how much the Trump administration has tried to meddle with things so far. Rest assured that there is strength in numbers, and it's going to be very hard to get away with something that would really undermine the results.
David Furst: Election Day, two weeks from today. You mentioned in-person early voting kicks off in New York and New Jersey this Saturday. Mail-in voting already happening. Micah Loewinger, co-host-- Excuse me, let me say that again. Co-host of WNYC's On the Media. Thank you so much for joining us today. I had a thousand questions for you. I only got to about five.
Micah Loewinger: We'll have to do part 2 and part 3. Thanks for having me. This was really fun. Thanks, everyone, for listening and calling in.
David Furst: Great to have you here. Coming up tomorrow here on Please Advise, how to appreciate music. Our guest is Hrishikesh Hirway from the podcast and Netflix series Song Exploder. Is there a style of music that you just don't get? Are you looking for a better way to come across new and interesting music? We are breaking through all of those barriers tomorrow. That's tomorrow here on Please Advise.
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