On today's episode of WNYC's new popup advice show, Brittany Luse, host of NPR's 'It's Been a Minute,' leads a conversation about family dysfunction and other difficult dynamics among relatives, with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, licensed psychologist, host of the mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls, and author of Sisterhood Heals: The Transformative Power of Healing in Community. Listeners call in with their questions, experiences and tips for navigating family matters.
Note: You are listening to the podcast version of a live radio show. The call-in number only works between 1 and 2 PM Eastern, while the show is live.
If you'd like to submit advice questions to be featured on the show, or topic suggestions for future shows, please use the form on our showpage at wnyc.org/advice
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Brittany Luse: Welcome to Please Advise, a popup advice show from WNYC. I am Brittany Luse, host of NPR's It's Been a Minute. Thank you so much for joining us today. All this week on Please Advise, we are going to be talking about different kinds of relationships. Tomorrow, we're taking your questions on friendship, whether you're growing apart or you're closer than ever, if you're trying to make friends at work or in a new neighborhood. We want to hear your questions and advice on being a friend.
Right now we are talking about family. That can be any family relationship. Maybe there's something off with your household dynamics between parents and kids. Maybe there's an extended family gathering coming up that you're dreading because of that one relative. Maybe there's drama with your parents or stepparents, or maybe there's some long-standing dysfunction and you're looking to work it out, extend an olive branch or otherwise try to change it for the better. We are here to try and help talk you through your family issues, whatever they look like. Our lines are open at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.
Joining us today is Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. She is a licensed psychologist and the host of the mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls. She is with us today to take your calls. Dr. Bradford, thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Thank you for having me, Brittany. It's great to be with you.
Brittany Luse: Oh, my gosh, it is a pleasure. I just have to say, listen, I wanted to talk family stuff today, but I knew we had to really call in somebody with some real credentials, not just me having an opinion. I'm very grateful to have you with us today. We are going to take some calls obviously within this hour. While we wait to hear from listeners, let's talk about the challenges facing families in general right now.
The structure of the family, how we think about the family is changing, has changed so much. There's so much discussion happening right now around just this whole concept of change within the family. The headlines are saying Gen Z is disinterested in marriage, that millennials are having fewer children or choosing to remain child-free, and quite a few people are choosing to go low-contact or even no-contact with their family members. People are making a lot of different decisions about what family could look like. Are these big shifts something that you're noticing in your work? Are younger generations approaching family differently?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Oh, absolutely, Brittany. I feel like you have been looking through our podcast catalog, because we actually have an episode coming out tomorrow all about being child-free by choice. We recently had an episode about going no-contact, especially with parents. I think that there are lots of conversations and people are really reimagining what it means to be in family and thinking about how our mental health is often negatively impacted by relationships with family, unfortunately. I think people are giving themselves permission to redo family and maybe create family in ways that we haven't typically considered.
Brittany Luse: I feel like there's also a question in here, too, of power dynamics. I think that there are a lot of assumptions in how family works; who gets to have boundaries, who gets to tell who what to do, whether that is between people who are young and adults or in families where everybody is an adult.
I feel like there's still a lot of power stuff being worked out. Sometimes choosing to do things differently can feel like a very powerful and profound choice to those around you, even if it's not something that affects them directly. Even just bringing up being child-free by choice, I'm "Ooh." I know that's even a topic, in and of itself, that a lot of families deal with even though-- I'm presuming that the people who make this choice are adults who can choose to do that on their own.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Correct. Absolutely. I think it is really interesting because there is, often, a lot of conversation and pressure put on, especially, women in families to advance themselves, like go to school, get a good education, do all of these things.
Brittany Luse: Were you hiding in the walls of my childhood home? That is mainly the tenor of so many of our conversations. Get yourself situated, get your education, get a job.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Right. Then at some point it switches, and then there's all this pressure. "When are you going to give me grandkids? When is a little person going to enter the picture?" It's "Wait a minute. I thought I was supposed to be focusing on education, and now you want me to figure out all these other pieces?" I think that has caused a lot of tension.
Brittany Luse: That has caused a lot of tension. I want to put a pin in that. I want to come back to this because I think a lot of people have been dealing with this within their extended families. We are going to hear right now from David, from Prospect Lefferts Gardens. David from PLG, Please tell us what's on your mind.
David: Hey. I have an older brother who-- about eight years older. About 40 years ago, he became an ultra orthodox Jewish person. My parents were atheists. This point in time I have a little boy. I live in Brooklyn. He lives in Brooklyn. He's my brother. I care about him. He lives in a another world and I miss having one. Also, for my son who's going to be 12, he's got all these cousins and second cousins. I just wish he could connect with them. It's just that my brother preaches to me and it makes me not want to communicate because of that. I don't know, I just feel bad about that.
Brittany Luse: David, thank you so much for calling. The dynamic that you're describing, even though you've shared your specific experience, it reminds me of a lot of tension that people have with their families where people have different beliefs, whether those are just their personal values, their religious beliefs or political beliefs. Sometimes that can keep the family members of one generation apart in a way that can then affect the family members in the next generation. Is that something that you've seen in your practice before, Dr. Joy? What are your thoughts on this?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Absolutely. Especially like you mentioned, Brittany, in recent years, there have been more conversations around how politics and religions have really been a lightning rod in families. People aren't able to discuss things and not attack one another. I think that there has to be groundwork for, "I am entitled to my beliefs and you're entitled to your beliefs, but that doesn't mean anybody is wrong. It just means that we have different belief systems."
I wonder if there's a possibility to have a conversation with your brother around, "I respect your beliefs, but I would also appreciate you respecting mine, especially in the interest of getting the children together." Cousins are such a wonderful addition to our lives, and so I hear the sadness around not allowing your son to be with his cousins. I wonder if there is an opportunity to have a conversation with your brother around, "Is there a way we can both exist and be entitled to our own value systems?"
Brittany Luse: This actually reminds me of another question that we got from Dan in Astoria. He wrote into our web form with a question I think a lot of listeners can relate to. Dan says, "My mother-in-law is constantly trying to get me and my wife to watch a political cable channel we disagree with completely. We try to never talk about politics, but she often brings it up. How does a person maintain peace within a family with very different political opinions? When is it worth battling over?" That's a good question.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I don't know that it is ever really worth battling. That feels like a very strong word, especially, again, if you know you're not likely to change her opinion and she's also not likely to change yours. This feels like a situation where you just have to agree to disagree and then say, "Hey, this is not something that we are comfortable watching, and it is not something we're comfortable talking about. If you feel insistent on bringing this up, then maybe we need to look at making our visits less frequent." I think sometimes you have to hold the line very clearly for people to understand that this is a boundary that I'm not willing to negotiate on.
Brittany Luse: Dr. Joy, you just said the B word. Boundary. Did the earth rattle? Are the walls shaking? Bringing that word up in the context of family, I feel like it could really cause for some tension and tough conversation. Talk to me about the idea of boundaries. I feel like a lot of younger generations, maybe millennials and Gen Z, have been discussing what their boundaries are and how they want to hold them with their families, with their maybe older family members of grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles. Talk to me about the tension that you might see generationally or within families when boundaries are brought up.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Brittany, this was not a conversation I ever had with my parents. I feel like it is only since I've been an adult that I even understood what this is. Like you mentioned, younger generations, of course, there's so much more conversations, so many more mental health professionals talking about these kinds of things that always existed, but we didn't really have language for.
I think it is really good that we talk about boundaries. Boundaries really are the line at which you and I can both exist and be in relationship with one another, but neither of us is compromised. Like we talked about, I am entitled to my value system and you're entitled to yours, and we can sometimes agree to disagree, but that doesn't mean we have to try to change one another.
The tension in families often comes because our parents, grandparents, didn't recognize boundaries as something that they could actually have, and they have grown accustomed to actually stepping on boundaries. They are offended because they've had access, they've been able to say whatever they wanted without any pushback. Younger generations are saying, "Hey, it's actually not okay for you to talk to me like that." That's a good thing. It is okay for you to say, "This is how I want to be treated. This is how I want to be valued, and this is what I need for us to be able to be in relationship with one another."
Brittany Luse: Ooh, I love that. I want to come back to boundaries in a second, but please call in and let us know if you have any questions or advice about a situation you got going on in your family. Again, our number is 212-433-9692. That is 212-433-WNYC. We got another call in from Rose from Bergen County. Rose, talk to us.
Rose: Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. A little bit of background. Growing up, my parents hit my sibling and I, my brother and me, when we didn't do something that was good in their eyes.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I'm so sorry.
Rose: I learned that that was very painful, so I don't hit my children. I never have. Recently I saw my brother do it, hit one of his children, my nephew, who is nine. I felt like I needed to say something, and I did. It really upset my brother because he felt that I was telling him how to raise his children. I felt like I shouldn't have kept my mouth shut. I'm glad I said something, but we haven't spoken. Did I do the right thing? Should I have spoken up for my nephew? What do I do?
Brittany Luse: Oh, my gosh, Rose, this is a great question. Dr. Joy, a lot of the conversations that we have around hitting children, corporal punishment, spanking, whatever you want to call it, I feel like a lot of people discuss it in terms of differing generations having differing values and opinions. What Rose is describing is a lateral difference in opinion between her and her sibling both reacting differently and developing different opinions about having had a similar or the same childhood experience. Talk to us about that. What do you think, Dr. Joy?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I think that this is not an uncommon experience for people who have experienced corporal punishment or spanking in their childhood. It often results in them making one of two decisions. Rose, people deciding, "Hey, that is something I would never do to my kids, or her brother, it sounds like making the decision like, "Oh, this happened to me, and maybe I thought it was important for my development, and I turned out better because my parents made this decision."
I don't think that you are wrong, Rose, for speaking up, and I don't think we are ever wrong for advocating on behalf of children. I hope that you know that it is good that you said something, but it does come with consequences. Your brother is entitled to feeling like you maybe stepped into something that you had no business, but I do think that you made a good decision in saying something.
I think a way back into, perhaps, an opening of a conversation with him is just to say, "Hey, I understand that you feel like I overstepped, but it felt important for me to go on record saying, 'Look at what this did to us.' Have you considered how this corporal punishment impacted us and that this may not be something that we actually want to impose on our children? I hope that you understand that I wasn't coming from a place of being malicious or judgment, but that I really hope that you would consider that there are other ways to discipline that don't actually involve punishment or involve spanking."
Brittany Luse: It's a very tough situation to be in, but what you've done, Dr. Joy, is provide a path forward for being able to deal with some tension, a delicate and sensitive situation, but also an entryway into a difficult conversation. I think a lot of people and families tend to avoid topics that are difficult or thorny or that feel stressful, and so I appreciate you giving a path forward that I hope really helps you, Rose. Next, oh, we're going to take Richard from the Upper West Side. Richard, please talk to us.
Richard: Hey, how's it going?
Brittany Luse: I'm doing good.
Richard: Can you hear me?
Brittany Luse: I want to hear from you.
Richard: Great. I've just been doing this thing of late, talking about boundaries where, I don't live in the same state as my folks, but when I'm on the plane, when I land at the airport and I'm on my way to them, I have made it a habit to go, "Just know everything that they're going to do, be it frustrating to me, it's an act of love. They're truly doing their best." Then I just go, "Just know that." Now I get to just do my best. I'm not always going to agree with them and what my version is. I just made it a habit to take some inventory every time I go and see them. It's been actually really helpful.
Brittany Luse: I love that advice, Richard. Thank you so much. You're talking about taking a moment to check in with yourself, acknowledge and validate your own feelings, but then also extending a lot of grace. That is really, really huge. What do you think, Dr. Joy?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: It sounds like a really beautiful and powerful grounding technique that he's using like, "Okay, let me get myself ready for the situation." It sounds like it's still important for him to have the connection to his parents, but maybe they make different decisions about things. He's going into it with his eyes wide open and, like you said, extending lots of grace so that they can be together for however long they are. I think that that is a really good thing.
A lot of times, the tension comes because we keep wanting our parents to do something different than they actually do, and then we end up disappointed, but he is saying, "Hey, I know this is who they are. This is how this will be, and I'm going into it with my eyes wide open."
Brittany Luse: You know what? I like that too, because what Richard is doing with that is actually being honest with himself. This goes for lots of different kinds of established relationships, definitely family, because sometimes family roles and expectations can become so calcified over time.
What he's allowing for is space for himself to acknowledge his own experience of how being around his family makes him feel instead of going back into his prescribed role and putting up the blinders, which I think a lot of people do, don't acknowledge their own feelings and just go right back into their role and wonder why they're ready to rip their hair out after 18 hours with their families.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Right. I completely agree with you. It is hard because you're always your parents' child. Of course, it's very easy to fall into who you were as a 12-year-old living in their house when you go back home. Having the routine like he does, I think can help you to break out of that mold.
Brittany Luse: Oh, my gosh. We got to take a short break, but my guest is Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. She is a licensed psychologist and the host of the mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls. We will be back in a minute with more of Dr. Joy's tips for navigating family dysfunction and more of your calls at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. This is Please Advise, a new live call-in advice show on WNYC. I'm Brittany Luse. Don't go anywhere.
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Brittany Luse: You're listening to Please Advise, a new live call-in show on WNYC. I'm Brittany Luse. My guest is Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. She is a licensed psychologist and the host of the mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls. We are taking your calls. If you need some help, some advice about dealing with a family issue, we are here to help at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC.
Also, I just want to let you all know you can call in anonymously, so if you don't want to put your family business on front street, you can not use your name and leave your business on side street. Nobody will be any of the wiser. Right now we are going to pick up a call from James from Chattanooga, Tennessee. Is that right?
James: Yes. I'm originally from Brooklyn, but I'm stuck down here, not to my own decision, at the moment.
Brittany Luse: Listen, we just appreciate the fact that we're still on your minds that you called into WNYC. Please tell me, James, what's on your mind?
James: I'm calling in with a little question specifically about boundaries and one of the most difficult boundaries it is to set. I will just gently say my parents are deeply religious, not necessarily in a problematic way. We're not talking about Southern Baptist or wild evangelical stuff, but they have extreme deep thoughts about their Christian roots. I am a devout atheist. I think religion is problematic. It's something that I simply do not wish to participate in.
When my son was growing up, they failed to recognize my problem with it and would insist on taking him to church and bringing him into religious activities. Now they're trying to do it with my grandson. I'm trying to figure out the way to discuss this with them because, obviously, I don't want to hurt their feelings. I do think they're well intentioned. If my son or his son wants to make this decision later on in life, that's on them. That's completely their free will, but it's something that I simply do not want brought into my family. It's been very difficult trying to communicate that to them.
Brittany Luse: May I ask a follow-up question?
James: Sure, of course.
Brittany Luse: I just want to make sure I understand. Is your grandson the son of your son, or is your grandson the son of a different kid?
James: The grandson is the son of my son.
Brittany Luse: All right. I'm following. I'm with you. I'm curious, Dr. Joy, hearing this, again, we're having a conversation about a vast difference in beliefs and belief systems, which is not unusual in so many families, I feel like, what's your read on this situation? We're talking about a difference in beliefs, but also boundaries, but also an intergenerational conflict.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I'm also curious, James, if your son is having concerns with this, or are you having concerns on your son's behalf? I definitely want to hear more about that if you can share. One thing that I heard you say is that, "I don't want to hurt my parents' feelings." I think it's important for us to know that we actually are not responsible for anybody else's feelings. We can't control whether their feelings are hurt or not. We can only be responsible for us sharing our truth, honestly.
Of course there's a way to say things. You don't have to be nasty in the way that you say it to your parents, but I think that you could be very clear that, "This is not something that my grandson ascribes to. This is not how his parents want him raised. I would appreciate if you would respect the boundaries that we have set." Again, back to our earlier conversation, if not, then that may mean that access to the grandson is limited. If they can't play by the rules that his parents have set for how they want to raise their child, then that doesn't mean that they automatically have access to him. Sometimes you have to revoke access in order to enforce a boundary.
Brittany Luse: Dr. Joy, I love your answer too, because what it does is it puts the power back in the hands of the father or the parent of the grandson who, especially when the grandson is concerned, is going to be the ultimate authority in the situation. I really, really appreciate that response. Next we're going to hear from Don in Central Park. Don, what's your question or advice?
Don: Hello. No advice, just a question. It's about the boundaries we're talking about with family. How do we find a place to reconcile when those things that we don't agree upon are just non-starters? [unintelligible 00:23:13] for example, as a gay man, when someone votes against my personal rights or freedoms, that is a non-starter for me, but it's my family. How do we come to the table?
Brittany Luse: Dr. Joy, I can see you from here, nodding. I imagine this is something that has come up a lot, both on your podcast and probably in your practice. The concerns that you shared, Don, I also have heard from people in my own personal life within their families. How do we approach this?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Don, I hear you saying it's a non-starter, but you're also, it feels like, a little bit wavering around like, "Is it still okay to be in relationship with these people?" If it's a non-starter, then it is a non-starter. That, again, means maybe you don't show up to family functions. Maybe you feel okay having virtual conversations or phone conversations, that you're not actually physically in the space with these people.
I think it can be heartbreaking, especially when it is family who make decisions like this that really feel like they go against the humanity of who you are. This is not, "I like Coke and you like Pepsi." This is, "You are voting against who I am just as a person." I think that that can be really a difficult pill to swallow, especially when it's family, but it's also okay for you to be consistent with your values and say, "This is not okay for me, and I do not want to be in relationship with people who feel this way, even if it is family."
Brittany Luse: Don, thank you so much for calling in. My heart goes out. I know that's not easy to deal with. Next we're going to hear from Alice from Harlem. Alice, what's your question?
Alice: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I wanted to ask about the role that you play as maybe the person outside of your partner's family. Specifically to this, my fiancé, his mother was diagnosed with MS-
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I'm sorry.
Alice: -approximately seven years ago. The way that she has taken on this diagnosis is just incredible. She's changed her diet. She's just fully attentive to her health. Also this has come with a way of reclaiming her own joy and independence. Some of the decisions she's made around this have been challenging to her two sons who love and want to protect her, but also feel that some of her decisions may impact their own, maybe, long-term financial-- have long term financial consequences, or maybe they're concerned about safety.
For instance, she now lives alone in her home. From an outside perspective, in creating this new relationship with my soon-to-be mother-in-law, I just love her to pieces. I love the way that she's approaching her life. I really support a lot of these-- trying to be independent in the way that she is. It's that tension between wanting to be supportive of my partner and him wanting some more-- be brought into the decision-making more than she's bringing her sons into it.
The other day he was like, "You don't support me in these conversations," because I tend to play devil's advocate in supporting the decisions that she's making. Just curious about how to be a supportive partner in these kinds of difficult conversations around health when it comes to their family.
Brittany Luse: Oh, my gosh. Boy oh boy. Alice, thank you so much for calling. What you are going through, my heart goes out because I feel like so many adult children and partners of adult children who have parents with health challenges are all trying to figure things out. The parents who have the health challenges are also trying to figure these things out. I spoke with a therapist on my show, It's Been a Minute from NPR. Her name is Dr. Alexandra Solomon, and she said something. We also had another guest, Carolyn Hax from The Washington Post.
One of the things that was brought up in this conversation was that parents, they've never-- Old people know what it's like to be young, but young people don't know what it's like to be old. Also older folks are also getting older for the first time ever, either. It really gave me some perspective as far as understanding the fact that, whatever the parent is going through is also somewhat unprecedented for them as frustrating as it can be to be a child and to be like, "Why won't you do what I think you should do?"
It really reminded me that there are so many different facets to these conversations and put me more in the shoes of the other side of the equation, at least for myself now, which is the parent who is dealing with aging and their body changing in maybe ways that they can't control or didn't anticipate. Dr. Joy, there's so much going on here. There's dealing with the partner's family, there's the partner disagreement, and then there's also that tension between the adult child and the aging parent going on. What is going on? What do you think?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Something I heard Alice say was that he says she doesn't support him because she doesn't agree with him. I don't think support always has to mean that we believe the same thing. I'm glad that she's able to give another voice in this conversation. Support can still be like, "I know that this is really hard for you," but also helping him to maybe more of Mom's side.
You're absolutely right, Brittany. There's a lot of grief that comes with parents getting older, and now we are adding illness on top of it. Grief for her in terms of maybe loss of abilities and the freedom and the agency that she's had, but also for the kids in terms of, who they thought mom would be in her older years. Everybody is adjusting to this new normal, and so it's not uncommon to have some tension around how everybody thinks they need to proceed. Mom is still an adult and entitled to her decisions, but those decisions do have consequences, and the kids also are entitled to their decisions.
If Mom makes a decision that has poor consequences, that doesn't mean that the kids have to then swoop in to make everything okay, because it is the result of Mom's consequences. I'm sure they would not let their mom be homeless, or that kind of thing, but if she makes a decision and something happens, it is the result of her decision. We can have a lot of safeguards in place, but truthfully, we can't prevent all negative outcomes from happening, especially when an adult has made a decision for their life.
Brittany Luse: It's so tricky to balance that, to balance understanding the other perspective while also still wanting to-- engaging your relationship in a way that you had imagined. The parent wants to be able to maintain their agency, of course, and the adult child also probably wants to see their parent living in a certain type of situation or with a certain level of comfort. Sometimes those two visions can be at odds. It can just be really, really tough. Oh, my gosh. Ooh, we got another call. Kim from Brick, New Jersey. Kim, I'd love to hear from you.
Kim: Hello.
Brittany Luse: What's going on?
Kim: Hi, how are you? I heard Dr. Joy expressing some advice to the caller earlier about his grandson and the religious beliefs of his parents. One of the things that she advised was to let those grandparents know, "We're going to set a boundary." I love that word, too. "We're going to set a boundary and say you're going to have to spend less time with him if this is something you're going to push."
I'll tell you, probably about five years ago, my sister was mad at me for I don't even know what reason at this point. It really was minuscule at the time. We're sisters. We fight. She had said to me, "I don't need to let you see your nephew." That ammunition that she now holds, now I have two nephews and a niece, I am now always so conscientious of the fact that she can just take them away from me. It's very painful. I really question Dr. Joy about how do you navigate that with people and express to them not to use this, to just be hurtful? That kind of thing.
Brittany Luse: That's an interesting situation that you bring up. Kim, thank you so much for calling. Dr. Joy, what do you say to that? It sounds like what you were describing earlier. I could see how that might sound like setting up a boundary or upholding a boundary for somebody, but also, sometimes that sort of talk can be weaponized. What do you think?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: That's exactly the word I was going to use, Brittany. That does not sound like a boundary. That sounds like her weaponizing a relationship against her sister. I don't think that was a boundary at all. Again, so much of this therapy speak, so to speak, using the words like boundaries and gaslighting can be misused and used in ways that it is not intentioned. It does not sound like the sister was actually enforcing a boundary because you hadn't done anything to step across anything. It doesn't sound like you did something that she didn't agree with or that you mishandled the child. It sounds like she just wanted to punish you and took away access to her child as a result. That's not actually boundaries.
Brittany Luse: I was going to say I feel like boundary-setting is letting somebody know. Also, I feel like there can be some, very often preceded by communication, saying what the boundary is as opposed to just being like, "Let's guess." I'll lay out an emotional minefield and then just see how I respond. You can't really be in relations with people like that and expect them to either read your mind or walk on eggshells around you. That's a really, really good point about boundary-setting versus weaponizing that.
I'm going to let that marinate for a second. We got to take a quick break. I just want to say once again, my guest is Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. She is a licensed psychologist and host of the mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls. We'll be back in a minute with more of Dr. Joy's tips for navigating family dysfunction and more of your calls at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. This is Please Advise, a new live call-in advice show on WNYC. I'm Brittany Luse. Don't go anywhere.
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Brittany Luse: You are listening to. Please Advise, a new live call-in show on WNYC. I'm Brittany Luse. My guest is Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. She's a licensed psychologist and the host of mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls. We are taking your calls. If you need some advice about dealing with a family issue, we are here to help at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We got Gee from Westchester on the line. Gee, lay it on us.
Gee: Hey. Oh my goodness. Boy, we need this program every day, all day. My stepmom has been speaking on behalf of my father for some time when he started slowing down and not being able to have that rapid-- his usual pace of responding. This was- turns out to be the early onset dementia that is now getting quite a bit worse. She appears really unwilling. It's very infantilizing that she is speaking for him when if she just gave him a little bit more time he would be able to say what he wants and needs. It's bad.
One of the things is that it's also potentially crossing over into legal territory where she may have been speaking on his behalf during estate planning. I can't say with certainty, but likely made some changes because of her ideas about things without her overstepping his wishes.
Brittany Luse: Gee, I am sorry. That's a heavy one. I just want to ask one follow-up question though. When you say speaking for your father, you mean in general contexts, everyday conversation, text, the phone? What does this look like?
Gee: He's at the point where he probably has a hard time picking up the phone. I don't think he can place an outgoing call at this point. It's like she is saying if he doesn't respond fast enough from very simple things or even like ordering food in a restaurant, she is prompting him how he should be answering, which gives him a problem that his cognitive process can't develop because she's doing it all for him and now it's making it worse. She answers on things behalf, like prompting him or reprimanding him, which really stinks. You can imagine, Brittany. Reprimanding him because he can't remember stuff. She can't seem to grasp that his brain changed.
Brittany Luse: Wow. Dr. Joy, what do you think?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: This feels really cruel, and I am sure it's very hard to witness on your father's behalf as someone who loves him. It feels like there needs to be some intervention here. I don't know that stepmom understands-- I don't know. Does she understand what happens and how dementia can present? Most professionals would suggest against these kinds of things. This is actually not working in terms of a good treatment plan for him, and so I wonder if there is some family meeting that can be called maybe with his physicians. Are there a team of medical and maybe even mental health professionals who are seeing Dad that everybody could meet with to get on the same page?
In terms of the estate planning, that definitely feels like something that an intervention needs to happen with. I don't know if you can call whoever the family lawyer is or whoever the estate plan has been done through to say that you have concerns about this, who then could maybe meet with Dad in person and see, because, of course, there are letters of the law that have to be followed in terms of somebody's estate. It definitely feels like there needs to be some intervention there.
Brittany Luse: I think that's great advice, Dr. Joy. Essentially what we're talking about here is getting everybody in the room with the professionals and getting everything laid out on the table, the facts, so that they cannot really be disputed, or if they're disputed, you can actually have a conversation about it in person with the professionals present. Seems like a really good way to bring in some accountability to this situation. Next we got another call. Tony from Queens. Tony from Queens, what's going on?
Tony: Hi. Can you hear me?
Brittany Luse: Yes.
Tony: I've got a 20-year-old at home, highly intelligent. When you speak to her, she seems highly capable, always had ADHD and anxiety. Her whole life she's been self-sabotaging. She's been given access to therapists, group, individual, has had IEPs with special resources at school, and she's been given resources that have not been easy to come by, that my wife and I have worked very hard to give opportunities.
She was interested in a programming camp that was $1,000 a week, things like that. Then she would go to it and she wouldn't try. We would get feedback from every source saying, "Oh, she's extremely intelligent, but she asked me to do it for her." She tries to get somebody else to actually be the one who gets involved. You'd talk to her and she'd be like, "This is what I want, whatever," but she doesn't put any effort in.
Now we're at a point where she had to step out of college because she had extra resources there, counselors for twice-exceptional kids helping her manage her schedule and things like that, and she blew that person off. She's been basically self-sabotaging. We've given flexibility, like, "You want to go learn how to be a tailor or anything, whatever you want to do, just as long as it's respecting yourself, respecting other people and moving towards being independent."
Also one of the things I've been pushing is to have good health, hygiene, emotionally getting out of her room, having normal palate of interactions with people. At this point, she'll do chores if we ask her right then and there, but you cannot depend on her. I feel like she's setting herself up to be dependent on me, and I feel like she's taking advantage. She's 20 years old, so I feel like this is a person that eventually, I need to draw a boundary. I can only control myself. I hate to say it, but eventually, I'm not willing to support somebody who's not willing to help themselves in the long run.
Brittany Luse: I see. Tony, my heart goes out to both of you. I can only imagine you take care of someone for their entire lives and you have hopes for what you think their life might look like. Also you want to see them thrive, be happy and find something that they love, and to treat people with respect. I think that's wonderful, but I also can understand from her perspective, being 20 and feeling lost in the world and not sure of what to do next. Those two states meeting each other head on, sounds like a recipe for a lot of stress and conflict. Dr. Joy, I see you nodding. What do you think?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: That is normal for 20-year-olds, to be confused about what they want to do, and to be exploring. I also hear Dad's frustration in that. It feels like she's been given a lot of resources, a lot of flexibility, a lot of leeway to explore, and he still doesn't feel like she is making progress with that exploration. The anxiety and the ADHD, the self-sabotaging that you're naming can sometimes be a byproduct of those things. I wonder if it is not as much self-sabotaging as she's incredibly anxious about some of this stuff and maybe it looks like self-sabotage on the outside, but of course, that doesn't make anything less frustrating.
At some point, I think that this is going to also be a case of, what are the natural consequences of her actions? If you have a job that you do not show up to and do what you're supposed to, then you typically get fired. Some of this will also be, like you said, setting boundaries and not making it maybe so comfortable for her not to stretch herself. Is she consistently working with a therapist? Are there medications that people have suggested that maybe she is not taking?
It sounds like we need a very structured treatment plan and maybe even some kind of outpatient mental health treatment so that she can get used to these activities of daily living, "How do you become an adult, and how do you take care of responsibilities?" in ways that are protected, but it also gives her more independence. I think that may be something to look into.
Brittany Luse: Oh, my gosh. We got another call. I think it's probably our last call. MB from Westchester. Are you there? What's up?
MB: Yes, I'm here. Dr. Joy, thank you for this hopeful, free advice that you're giving everybody, including, hopefully myself. I, without getting into details, have been dealing with some family dynamics, honestly, for a while. Actually listening to all these calls, I can't wait to go back and listen to this online because I missed some of the callers as I was driving around. It's so healthy to hear other people's problems in a way to feel, not exasperated, but being like, "All right, here's what you can do. Here's a solution. Let's stay in this to enjoy our lives."
I just wanted your advice because on some of the things I'm dealing with, I really, deep down, wrestle if I'm avoiding dealing with things because of my choices to stop talking about certain things. I almost feel like I'm ghosting people by not-- a pattern in my family of, "I'm just not dealing with that. I'm just moving on. I can't control the universe." I don't always have the influence I think I could, or I'm waiting to see what is the positive influence I could make in some of these cases. I question sometimes, am I really dealing with this, or am I really just, I don't know, trying to avoid making a difference?
I just also want to throw in when life is on the line, which, I believe it is every day, what are you going to do? Are you going to do nothing? Because then that's what you're doing. You're not doing anything. That's where, deep down, sometimes I'm like, "I don't want my answer to ever be that I didn't do anything."
Brittany Luse: What you're bringing up is attention I think a lot of people have within their families, sometimes feeling like they have a responsibility to step in and be helpful or supportive when they feel like the family needs it, but also wanting to preserve the self and take a step back, or not engage in a pattern or conversation that has caused a lot of tension and stress within the family. Dr. Joy, what do you think?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I just want to highlight the importance of these kinds of conversations also, Brittany, because, like she mentioned, we can often get in our heads and feel really alone with what we're struggling with. Then you hear these kinds of conversations and realize, "Oh, my gosh, everybody has family stuff." We are never alone with any experience that we are having. You are also very right in that avoidance sometimes feels like activity, but it really is just avoidance.
Sometimes we can make a decision to like, "You know what? I don't want to cross that line today. That's not a conversation I want to have today." If you never go back to it, then it could just be you avoiding. Again, we don't have any control over how other people will respond to whatever it is we have to say, but I still think it is important for us to go on record voicing how we feel and letting people know, "Hey, this is not okay," or, "I think you made a mistake here." We can still be okay voicing our opinions, even if it doesn't change anything.
Brittany Luse: Ooh, I love that, because it's all about expressing yourself and what you think without necessarily having an expectation of how anybody else is going to respond. I'm going to put a note for myself for that one right there.
We got one more question via text. "My wife suddenly died in 2023. I remain very close with our three adult daughters, all in their 20s now. A wonderful woman recently agreed to marry me. My daughters like my fiancé and are happy we have found each other. They are also friendly with her daughters, whom they have known for many years and who have welcomed me generously. The biggest challenge has been integrating my fiancé into our family life, gatherings, travel, milestones, et cetera. Any suggestions on how to make the transition easier and to reassure my daughters that their mother is irreplaceable?" That's a beautiful question. Dr. Joy, what do you think?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I'm really glad that the setup was as positive because I didn't know where we were going when he first said, "There's a new person."
Brittany Luse: You never know. Listen, with family, it could be anything.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: It could be anything. It sounds like this is already a good setup. I would encourage you all to imagine new traditions for the family. It may be really rough if you just try to substitute this woman into who their mother was. They wake up on Christmas morning, she's baking cookies. What new kinds of things could you do as a family? Maybe y'all decide to take a trip together somewhere or do something completely different, like reimagining the holiday traditions for this new version of the family.
Brittany Luse: I love that idea, starting new traditions for a new version of the family. The other thing, too, that comes to mind when you talk about wanting your daughters to understand that you also agree with them that their mother is totally irreplaceable; finding ways that maybe you all together, maybe even the entire new family setup, can honor the memory of their mother.
I think that one of the most beautiful things that I have seen in relationships that I've just witnessed in my own life, where people form a new family after losing a spouse or a partner or parent, are finding ways that they can make space for the new partner and also for their late partner. I think it can be so beautiful to see people's hearts and capacity for love expand in those moments and not be territorial or jealous, but to truly just welcome the presence of this past partner, of this past version of the family, with open arms.
I think that there could be a possibility for all of you to do things in remembrance of their mother and also even just for you to do something with your daughters, especially that's just for you guys, maybe a tradition that you all have, around her memory that might also bring them some peace and help them stretch to be able to accept and welcome this new version of the family.
Oh, my gosh. Dr. Joy, we have really gone on a journey today. We have gone on a journey today. Any last thoughts for our listeners?
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: No, just keep the conversations going. These kinds of things are really important. I hope that this has sparked some of that for you.
Brittany Luse: Oh, my gosh. I just got to say I've really enjoyed listening to you all's conversations today. I've enjoyed talking to you. Dr. Joy. My guest today has been Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. She is a licensed psychologist and the host of the mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls. Dr. Joy, thank you so much for joining us today on Please Advise.
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Thank you. It's been great.
Brittany Luse: Coming up tomorrow, we'll be talking about friendships with journalist Rachel Wilkerson Miller, author of The Art of Showing Up. We'll talk about showing up for our besties and how to navigate it when life gets in the way of being there for each other. I'm Brittany Luse. You can catch me on my podcast, It's Been a Minute from NPR. This has been WNYC's new popup advice show, Please Advise. Thanks for all your calls and texts and thank you so much for sharing with us.
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